Interview with S.P.
Polyamoury: A perspective on love, commitment and sex.
Hi Brenda and Cliffy,
Brenda, you are a wonderful writer and you guys are both gifted teachers. Rather than run the risk of misquoting, I thought perhaps doing the initial interview by email might be best. While there are some specific question I would like to ask, I am interested in your whole experience of polyamoury from the beginning to the present. Please know that any identifying information will be protected. You are welcome to provide aliases and I recommend the use of aliases for anyone you might reference in order to protect their identity as well.
Polyamoury can be a frequent occurrence in the Pagan community and many new commers ask questions. For example just a few months ago, lady was telling me about a couple who wanted her to join them in a handfasting. She was asking me questions about how well triangulated relationships work out-- how they can affect children, etc. I had to tell her honestly that I didn’t know, however that I have meet couples like the both of you who have long term loving marriages/open relationships. So I know it works, but not what it takes to MAKE them work. I was no help to her at all, but you guys could be. Your experiences are invaluable to not only the pagan community in general, but to the academic world as well. For example, several chapters in my text book on Human Sexuality covered LGB relationships, the nature of attraction, conflict resolution, commitment, love, marriage vs cohabitation --all this with an eye toward future trends. I think a palyamourous perspective is very much needed in order to encourage people to fully appreciate and respect diversity.
So, I would like you guys to talk—freely. Whatever you feel needs to be know and understood. Some things to consider discussing...
Misconceptions, stereotypes and prejudices:
A) One of the biggest misconceptions is that its a huge decadent sexual orgy. It isn't. As with any marriage there are days when you just do not want to have sex with anyone. The love has to be there for any relationship to work. That means, to me at least, that you are there holding their head when they are tossing their cookies, cleaning house together (for us assigned rooms worked best), cooking and shopping together and sharing interests and fun together.
Don't get me wrong, it is nice when the sex is there. We were in a poly V with a man for 12 years. It is a lot, lot, lot of hard work. He and I were a lot alike and he had convinced himself that Cliff and I were only together as a cover for Cliff's family who did not know (or admit) that Cliff was gay. This man loved Cliff and he loved me but not in any sexual way. So the V relationship existed, There was sex between me and Cliff and between our “husband” and Cliff but never between CRB and me. When Texas was revisiting the gay marriage issue in the early 2000's He asked me if I would divorce Cliff to let him marry Cliff. I said “no way, I'll share but I won't give him up.” After that the dissention grew. CRB would be angry and yelling at me and take a step toward me with his fist doubled up (I don't think he would have ever hit me but you can't be sure) and Cliff would step between us and force CRB to back down. After 2004, CRB moved out and left the house to Cliff and me. He had inherited a lot of money and bought himself another house about 5 minutes away. Cliff and he continued to be a couple but we didn't live together. They took long vacations together. CRB would take us out to eat or a movie together, and in 2009 CRB paid for an all expense paid trip to Ireland for Cliff and me to celebrate our 20th anniversary.
In 2005, I walked my husband Cliff down the aisle to be handfasted to CRB. One of my favorite photos is of the tree of us hugging after the ceremony. I'll share it with you if you like. We have support from those of his family who are still living now and always from my family and CRBs family. When they finally split up we all mourned. Its like any divorce, some are friendly – some are not. Ours was not.
B) stereotypes:
Modern society doesn't seem to understand that this type of relations have been around all the way back into the early Bible days. It was acceptable for women to own property in some times in the Bible as it was acceptable to have as many wives as one could support. In ancient history, it was the brother's duty to marry his brother's wives if something happened to that brother. I have heard a lot of the bad things: She must have no morals to be sleeping around like that. He is out after anything he can get. They are going to spread diseases. If they have a kid the kid won't know who their true parents are.
One grouping that I know of has contracts. If they desire to add anyone into the family grouping they must first meet and get to know the new person, find out how their personalities mix and then a written contract is brought out to lay down the ground rules for what the pecking order is. There is one main “wife” and she is the one who will always have the last say. Since poly marriages are not legal at this time, She is the one who can legally marry the man. They are not limited to admitting only women, they can admit men who are open to sharing their boyfriends, girlfriends with the others.
We had family meetings. If there were questions or issues to discuss we'd set a time and a day and sit down and talk them out. We currently share our home with 5 other people. None of them are in any relationship with us, though there is one girl who wishes it were so. She is in love with me. I have a girlfriend who lives in another town. I am polyamourous and monogamous. I know that sounds sort of oxymoronic doesn't it? It isn't really. I am not interested at this point in finding another girlfriend or boyfriend. Cliff is gay, I am bi – He hasn't been in but 2 long term relationships with another male since our marriage in 1989. We have had a couple true triangle relationships in which both of us were emotionally and sexually involved with the same person, often at the same time.
We deal with our conflicts with our household with meetings and we use a talking stick because there are a couple of people in our home who would talk right over everyone else.
C) As to prejudices, everyone has one or two. Prejudices do not mean just against something, one can have prejudices for something. I am prejudiced against abortion – I am for right to choose. I am against picketing graves of gay persons, suicides, military persons killed in action. I am for the right to be who we are: Pagan, Christian, Muslim, Mormon, Jewish, Witch, Gay, Straight, Bi, Transgendered and who may not yet know what is right for them. I am very against Government interference in any of those issues. Don't get me on that soap box. (laughing)
Giving advise to those in relationships regarding conflict resolution, jealousy, commitment, communication and even coping with brake-ups.
The best advice I can give to those in relationships is to be honest and open. Secrets have the way of a termite eating away the foundation of your home life. As to jealousy, when you know, absolutely KNOW that the person you are with loves you and wants to be with you the jealousy won't be an issue. You can not be in a successful poly relationship in my opinion if you are the jealous type.
Anything woth having is worth working for. It may be cliché but it is true. Make your own commitment to your family and work at keeping your loves alive and fresh. Don't make the mistake that I did in my past marriage... don't think to yourself, I'm married now, that's all there is to it. Everything including how you want to raise any children in your grouping has to be a joint decision. Have friends outside your relationship that you can talk over things to see if they are real issues or just fears. But do not close communications with your loved ones. If everyone in the poly or straight relationship makes that commitment and works toward the same goals, it will go easier. It won't be perfect, no one is.
Break-ups are as hard as having someone die in many cases and you follow the same seven steps of grieving with any great loss. Give yourself time to grieve for what might have been. But, if someone wants out of the relationship and there is no chance of getting back together, then move one. Don't hang on.
My text book said that LGB often have trouble in a religious communities--how supportive do you find the Pagan community? What role does handfasting play in stability/commitment, if any? Under what conditions would you recommend that Pagans in polyamourous relationships handfast?
Pagans as a whole are more accepting of poly relationships. In 1996, Cliff and I went to a Pagan gathering in Kentucky and Oberson Zell-Ravenheart and his poly partners were there. His wife and one of their other wives that I know of. It seemed to be “just a thing” to everyone I met. I learned that weekend that there were a number of poly relationships there some V, Some diamonds, or triangles, and some simply called groupings.
Handfasting is a marriage of either a year and a day (sort of a trial run) or “for as long as love shall last”. I think if the group wants to show their joined commitment then they should go for it. It is, in my opinion, much more of a marriage than a piece of legal paper. We have always counseled anyone who is considering handfasting to sit down with their priest and priestess and talk about what that sort of commitment really means. These are vows, promises, that you as individuals or as a group, are making directly to the powers of the universe – God, Goddess. They hear and will hold you to those promises.
It doesn't have nearly as high a hand-parting (divorce) ratio if they stay true to those vows and it does give you stability in your own heart and soul where it matters a lot more than the conventional wedding does.
4) Do you know many other polyamourus partners amongst your friends and what would you say is the average success rate of such relationships? How do you define successful polyamourous relationships? What goes wrong? What goes right?
The success rate varies as does any “straight” marriage. I know couples who have been in continous relationships for 3 years up that are poly and I have known some gay couples who have been together past twenty years. It depends on how much they really love one another and want to make it work.
What goes wrong is the left out feeling (not true jealousy necessarily) but watching two (or more) of your lovers together without being involved is hard on someone. Unless, like me, they are a bit of a voyeur and that is a whole other topic. What goes right is makiing sure that everyone knows they are loved and making sure each partner has a little “alone time” with their main lover.
Is there language or terminology used inside the polyamoury community to more effectively communicate? For example, Brenda explained one grouping as a 'V'.
There is some special terminology but I am not so active in the main-stream of multiple family. I know the “classic terms” are V (the relationship I described with Cliff, CRB and me), Triad or triangles where its a simple three party family group and all are completely involved. Then comes the W and the diamond and I do not know the others. A W involves two V relationships in one family from what I understand, and a diamond is two triads with all parties interactive.
How do children of polyamourous partners feel about the deviation from dominate cultural norms? Research regarding children of LGB couples indicates that the children are not adversely effected. Based on your observations, do you think this is true in polyamourous families as well? Why or why not.
I only know one poly family that has a child of one partner living with them and he is loving and accepting of all of the household and vice versa. As with gay parents and straight parents, its up to the parents to educcate their children on the differences of their family in a way that lets them sort out their feelilngs and ask questions. If the family acts norm, as if there is nothing odd, then the children won't have as many issues, I believe. When the bullies at school start in, its time for a meeting with counselors and teachers to make sure it is not allowed to get out of hand.
If you where to teach an hour long class on polyamoury to a mixed audience of Pagans and non-pagans, what would you most want to say? What experiences/insights would you want to share?
If I were to teach an hour long class, I'd offer a hand out with a diagram of family dynamics, a short lecture on some of the various problems and then open the floor to ask questions and have discussions. You can't tell what misconceptions others harbor and can't address them all without some Q & A.
I'd share with them the same insights that I have shared with you in this questionaire.
Some additional questions to guide the process:
How long have you and Cliff been together? (A little back ground history, please.) On July 24, 2014 Cliff and I will be married 25 years (and still have never had a true fight or bad argument).
At what point did you guys decide to bring in additional partners?
We talked about it before we got married. Our first was a triad. The man was bisexual, Cliff is gay, I am bisexual.
What were the longest of those relationships? Cliff, CRB and myself were together as a V family for 12 years. It started going bad at 10 years and we were separated totally the last year of CRB's life. He committed suicide in Oklahoma under suspicious circumstances.
You are both Bi-Sexual, correct? How did you share this information with each other in the beginning?
No, I am bisexual but Cliff is gay. He prefers guys … he just accidentally fell in love with a very butch woman.
Was jealous ever an issue? If so, how was it addressed?
Yes, I have been jealous of him on a couple of occasions (out of the normal family life) and he was jealous of me at least once that I know of. In both cases we handled it same as we do everything. We talked it out. I am psychic and If I tell Cliff don't go with that guy he listens. I am monagamous in both of my relationships. My girlfriend is married and has 4 children so we hardly ever see one another but I would not feel comfortable going with someone that wasn't her or Cliff (unless we are sharing a lover).
What have you learned about conflict resolution through your experiences?
It is hard. But then nothing worth having is easy. What I have learned is talk, talk and talk some more. Do not let problems fester in silence and grow bigger than it truly is. Do not lie, they come back to haunt you and once you have a lie, then you have to remember which lie was told to whom about what and you hang yourself.
Studies shows that Lesbian and Bi-sexual women are less influenced by social expectations regarding thinness in relation to physical sexual appeal. Instead, there is a tendency to be attracted to plumper females with hourglass like figures. Based on your own preferences and the comments of other LGB friends, would you agree or disagree with this? According to research, many women are equally attracted to men and women. What role do you think polyamory might play in acceptance of body image in American culture?
I am not restricted in my preference but, I do prefer chubbier men and women. As one of my Bisexual friends said while watching two willowy stick-thin characters on the L Word, “I broke it, can I have another?”
Most of the people I know (poly, gay or straight) prefer people not so much for looks as to the intelligence to carry on interested conversations. The “dumb blonde” stereotypes may be some fantasy lover but after the sex or lust weans a bit, how long could a person stand to be with someone who can't talk about current events, read a book, listen to music and enjoy it.
As for body image, that influence is going to come from acceptanc eof the Venus of Wellendorf figure as well as the “Twiggy” model. Pagans within my own circle are very intelligent for the most part and love to learn and would just as soon make love with a Goddess (even Wellendorf) as to select a partner soley on body type.
Once past the first filter of physical appeal, what qualities do you look for in long term partners?
Similar interests, tolerance of differences, stand up for their own causes.
How many partners have you had meaningful emotional and physical relationships with inside of a 6 month period? Did you run into any unexpected challenges? Where you able to overcome them? How?
At age 17 I was raped, in the next twenty four months I had sex with twenty-five people – most of who I didn't know. I have had no other partners but Cliff since 1999. My physical handicaps are the most difficult and unexpected change that I encountered. I have not had sexual intercourse but one time since 1999 when I had a very odd thing happen (that I do not repeat here) and both Cliff and I have been afraid to try it and now.... we both have medical issues and the closest we have to sex is passing each other in the hall and saying the F word grinning and kissing. (sorry old joke)
Have you ever had a partner/partners who was not able to handle the requirements of maintaining healthy polyamourous relationships? What were the causes of the break up/breakups?
Yes. Our first lover broke up with us because he loved us both and was afraid that he'd cause problems between us. We are still friends and still love one another but he has since married and we seldom see him. And, with our long term V relationship CRB was very jealous of me and my ability to be legally married to the man he loved. That ultimately was the cause of our break-up. That and he was off his medication and had major problems with control issues and bullying.
What are the requirements of maintaining healthy polyamourous relationships?
Be truly in love, be honestly and openly communicative, and give equal time to all within the family group.
What current laws have the most negative effects on living polyamourous? If you could, what would you change those laws to instead and why?
The current laws on marriage need to be changed so that family groupings and homosexuals have a right to marry who they love. I would instate rules that allowed marriage to be the matter of the local government, not the national one and kick out of office any who went opposed to the rights they hold and prevent others from having those same rights as they are entitled to.
In your opinion, what needs does polyamoury fulfill that standard marriage or serial cohabitation (living with one partner at a time)does not?
Polyamory allows for those who feel as if they have deep love for more than one person to be open about it and at present it cannot be done due to the laws.
In your opinion, how might polyamoury benefit society at large and future generations?
One thing pops to mind, it removes the aspect of a cheating spouse to a great degree. Why sneak out and have sex with someone when you have multiple choices at home? It would also allow families to pool resources in this hard ecomomic time. It introduces different cultures many times and it helps to reduce homophobia and brutality (at least theoretically)
15) May I ask you both follow-up questions over the phone later this week once Ive had a chance to review your comments?!
Yes, of course.
Owl Phoenix is thefounder and high priestess of the Eclectic Paths Coven in Fort Worth TX. She has taught basic Wicca classes since 1993. She is a co-administrator for the local Fort Worth Witches Meetup. She is a psychic "finder" and reads tarot, candle scryes, and a hands on energy worker.
Owl Phoenix is an author of fantasy, fiction, alternative lifestyle novels, poetry and has written a cookbook with her husband and high priest Fairy Fire under the mundane names.
